Why You Should Never Buy Cheap Tires

Why You Should Never Buy Cheap Tires

hello everyone and welcome in this video I am going to be putting on some new tires on my Honda s2000 now as I’ve often talked about tires are basically the most important component of your car so you know it’s important to not kind of cheap out here and get some quality stuff when you’re getting new tires there’s several reasons why I’m getting new tires for my car the tread wear on the tires that are on there currently is fine but they’re pretty cheap tires also the rear tires are not the correct size they’re a little undersized so there’s 205 s on the back now that’s the rear width versus 225s which is going to be going on it so about 20 more millimeters of width there which is the proper size that’s the OEM setup this actually came with bridgestone potenza so2 s I believe was the stock tire these are bridgestone potenza re 71 R so this is a high performance summer tire and hopefully we can see some additional grip out of them now because this is engineering explained I’m not just gonna talk about my feelings when driving it I bought this race logic VBox sport which has a 20 Hertz GPS engine in it so you can get super accurate data from it so I’m going to do some deceleration testing some bright testing and see what kind of distance is stopping distances and stopping times we get with these tires versus once I put these tires on and I’m gonna do my best to do it on days where the weather is very similar so that we get very similar data results so temperatures will be relatively the same when I test them another thing that’s messed up with the rear tires is they have excessive negative camber I’m not positive what they are I did get an alignment check and they said they are exceeding negative 1.7 I tried measuring it myself with a digital inclinometers not you know the greatest way to do it you really need to get a nice tool for this but they seem to be around a negative 2 to negative two point two degrees of negative camber on the rear which out is out of spec and one of the things that I’ve noticed driving it which is very unique to this vehicle is I’ve experienced braking oversteer and so I was coming into a corner pretty hard and I came in too fast so I gave it more breaks and most cars in that scenario like literally every car I’ve ever driven will just push forward an understeer in this car the rear kicked out and so I had a counter steer fix it get back on the road I didn’t go off the road but you know what I’m saying like you got to get it back the right direction and so that can kind of be a unique experience because most cars you drive will understeer when you’re at the braking limit coming into a corner and this did not and part of it has to do with the rear suspension setup but another part of it is that it has these cheap tires in the rear that are smaller than they should be they’re not as wide as they should be and they have excessive negative camber so both of those will lead to less grip and so I’m thinking that putting these on wider tires and then getting an alignment for the rear I should be you know kind of minimize that braking oversteer at least reduce it from what it is currently so it behaves a bit more neutrally rather than over steering while braking I am going to weigh all of the tires just to see if there is any difference between the fusion HR eyes and the Bridgestone aryeh71 arse these for the front the 205 sway 22 pounds these in the rear 23.2 pounds so just a little bit over a pound heavier for that 20 millimeter wider tire and so once we get those off I’ll weigh them and see what those way so my only challenge now is figuring out how to get these tires in this car to get them to the tire centre [Music] all right tie that down and I think that sounds gonna have to be all right so I’ve got the Bridgestone tires on and the fusion tires are off and the braking results as cliche as it sounds are pretty unreal it’s pretty hard to believe how big of a difference between these two tires one of the things I also noticed when I got these swapped the front tires are fusion VR eyes the rear tires are fusion HR eyes so the tires didn’t even match now the V and the H standing for the speed rating so the rear tires actually had a lower speed rating than the front tires previously there’s a whole lot of mess going on so these were some pretty poor tires and now we’ve got some more legitimate tires on there so I did some data testing with this Phivolcs sport I’ll include a link to this in the video description but anyways starting with the fusion tires the first test I did was at a hundred thirty six feet stopping from sixty miles per hour to zero in 3.4 seconds with a peak deceleration g-force of negative 0.999 so just under 1 G of deceleration 136 feet stopping from 60 to zero is not very good and then I did two more tests after that with the same tires the next test was at 140 feet peak deceleration G of 0.9 36 and that was in 3.5 5 seconds and then I did one final test after that and it stopped in 140 3.9 so almost 144 feet from 60 miles per hour in 3.5 eight seconds with a peak deceleration G of 0.9 to 6 so you can see as that tire is heating up as it’s breaking more and more its deceleration is getting worse and worse and so I also did get an alignment for these as I had mentioned previously my little handheld digital ink Lennar sketchy way of measuring the rear negative camber was actually pretty much spot-on they were both at negative 2.0 a negative camber the stock spec is somewhere between negative one point three and negative one point seven so the s2000 actually has pretty aggressive negative camber from the factory but they went ahead and took that down to negative 1.4 and they also fixed the front right tire which had slightly too much negative camber fix the toe everything’s evened out on there so perfect alignment now and so then I did the same break testing with the bridge stones the only difference is really it was five degrees warmer outside so sixty degrees Fahrenheit when I tested the bridge stones 55 with the fusions the fusions are all seasons the bridge stones are summer tires but not a huge difference five degree fahrenheit difference exact same location no wind similar tire pressures so I tried to account for all the variables and here’s where it gets kind of nuts so the first test I did with re 71 s one hundred twelve point three feet stopping from 60 miles per hour in 2.8 four seconds with a peak deceleration of one point one six five g’s so huge difference versus the first test 0.16 5g versus negative one G so a point 166 G difference for that first test the second test I did with these tires one hundred eleven point four feet stopped in two point seven two seconds and a peak deceleration of negative one point two one six GS one point two G’s with these tires and this was actually slightly downhill the location I’m doing from the stop to the start of the deceleration is about a five to ten foot drop not huge but it is going slightly downhill so at a slight disadvantage but you can see it’s consistent 112 to 111 versus the other tire went from 136 up to 140 now the final test this is crazy stopped in 107.9 feet in two point six three seconds with a peak deceleration of negative one point one nine three g’s so it was able to consistently hold a higher g-force even though the second run had a higher peak g-force the third one was more consistent with it and so this is crazy 108 feet stopping distance with these cars versus best case 136 feet with these tires right here worst case this is a difference of 36 feet of 0.9 5 seconds between the two a whole nother second of time and so I’m going to put up the video side by side of me doing this testing so you can see on the top this is me with the fusions and then on the bottom with the Bridgestone re 71 ARS and I’ll put a green light green dot to the side of the video once it’s come to a complete stop so both of these cars are stopping from about 65 miles per hour the bridge stones are actually starting one mile per hour faster but kind of negligible difference there for the video the testing is all measured from 60 exact so in the video you can see how much time difference there is between stopping coming to a complete stop in one versus the other and so you know I was looking at some prices online these fusion tires these VR eyes and HR eyes are no longer sold but they range from 65 bucks to 125 for the HR eyes 95 220 for the VR eyes I did the math basically let’s say you’ve got these as cheap as possible that was about three hundred and twenty bucks I look these tires up on tire rack today’s pricing 536 for the set for both the front and the rear and remember those rears are slightly wider so 536 216 dollar difference between those tires and these tires and yet they can stop 36 feet faster I mean imagine what you can do with an extra 36 feet with an extra almost a second to react so you know in emergency situations think about this you’ve got an additional 36 feet you’ve got an additional a duration of time to react to whatever emergency situation you need to and stop with these so is it worth saving 200 bucks to lose that safety net which you have with these tires and I’m not saying you have to get all out summer tires they’re certainly going to be better you know all seasons and regular summer tires that can handle the perhaps a bit better than these will but there are definitely better tires out there than the cheapest thing you find on the Shelf and I think that’s the important lesson to learn with this video you know actually invest some money in your tires because that’s your safety and if it’s for performance reasons if it’s a track car obviously the benefits here are huge this is 0.29 g’s maximum difference in deceleration between these two a third of a G’s so clearly those are gonna have better at lateral accelerometer proves have much better deceleration longitudinal grip so very cool to see this data basically what happened with this comparison to give you kind of another idea with these tires on this car it was stopping worse than a Cadillac Escalade it was literally behaving worse significantly worse than a Cadillac Escalade and now with these Bridgestone re 71 hours on it it is stopping faster than an Alfa Romeo 4c so it’s it’s gone across the entire spectrum as far as the performance in the braking purely from changing the tires the brakes are absolutely no different nothing else has changed on the vehicle it’s just got new tires and it’s able to stop significantly quicker so very cool to see the data and see that lesson in in real numbers of course I’ll include links to the products used in the video description if you guys have any questions or comments feel free to leave them below thanks for watching you

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  1. Thanks for watching everyone! The important lesson here really is to do some research before buying new tires. Companies like Tire Rack, Consumer Reports, and many of the major auto journalist magazines post independent test data and cross-examine all kinds of different tires for braking, lateral grip, wet/dry testing, etc. Buying the most expensive thing on the shelf doesn't necessarily equate to the best tire. Best to look at what tires are available for the size you need, and try to dig up data to see what performs the best. I believe safety is worth the extra money spent, and if it prevents you from getting in a wreck you'll save time and money in the long run. Hope you're all having a great day! Consider following my other pages!
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  2. Those tires only perform at their manufacturer spec at a high temp range. For daily driving, you've just wasted money needlessly. Most people don't track their car or even drive aggressive enough on the street to justify a tire like that. Tires like those would be better suited to my Comp M3 however they would, again, be wasted as I don't drive the way the tires were intended most of the time.

  3. Great video, fantastic data! I know I should have been an engineer, building homes was too much fun. Keep posting!

  4. What if you can get all 4 (with run flat) for less than the price of one. A full set of tires for my car is $1200-1400. I was some how damaging them beyond repair every other month and if you change one you have to change the other. Then I discovered cheap run flat tires. Yes, it does take longer to stop, but you save close to $1000.

  5. This is one of the best YouTube car channels of all time. Thanks for clearing up all my automotive questions!

  6. I don't understand the 3rd test on Bridgestone when stopping distance is only 108 ft within 2.62s but G is -1.193. Should it be higher than 2nd run? Thanks

  7. Everyone is getting too technical here in their arguing with the author. The fact of the matter IS that the S2000 is a sports car. If you want the car to live up to what it's designed to do, you gotta pay to play. Yes, you can buy cheap tires that can work in all seasons and last a bit longer. BUT if you want performance, it costs money. These tires perform great, but there are compromises. They'll likely wear out much faster.

    I drive a 2012 Volvo XC60 T6 AWD for uber and cover 35k a year. I bought it used and it had Hankook Dynapro HP2 tires on it, which I HATED. Garbage in the rain, and not communicative. They're around $150 each if you shop around. The O.E. Michelin Latitudes are $231 each pretty much everywhere, and Goodyear and Bridgestone tires aren't far behind. Decent Continentals are about $160. After reading countless reviews complaining about fast wear with all these brands, and knowing how much I drive, I decided to research for a better value tire, and I found it in the Sumitomo HTR A/S PO2. It is a high performance all season tire (the same exact thing as the falken pro g4 and similar to the ziex ze950 – Sumitomo owns falken and Ohtsu tires) with a 65k warranty and higher than factory load index and speed rating (107V – spec is 103T) Bought the set online and after install (not including alignment), I'm in them for $536 and WOW. They ride better, grip hard, provide vastly improved traction in the rain AND get +2mpg, verified after 5,000 miles, tank after tank. The only drawback is they're kind of noisy. Tire design requires compromise, so you need to establish your priorities based on what, where, and how you drive.

  8. Brands like Maxxis, Federal, and Achilles are confusing me so much, track goers use them and say they're good, but I can't justify their low price, they're like TEIN, which I'm skeptical about.

  9. Hi there. The better stopping had nothing to do with tire width. The tire compound was the reason. Also, as the summer tire "warmed up" they got "sticky" causing shorter stopping. The old all seasons did not "warm up" because of the type of compound and age, therefore longer stopping distance.

  10. What are you considering cheap tires? I have a new to me 2005 Tiburon GS that I've shopped for tires on. Found hankooks for $55, continental extreme grip for $107, and Michelin pilots for $152. And many in between and some higher. This car isn't track ready it's for delivering pizza in Ohio. Appreciate to hear back.

  11. Although size of OE rear tires says 225, they were actually wider. You should put 245/45 on the rear when replacing.

  12. comparing old against new…I had a set of fusions on a Miata that worked as new but when old, slid around in the rain as if it were slushy snow. ( I ask a lot from my tires )

  13. Whag do you guys think of Continental Tires? Specifically the Extreme Contact DWS 06 and the Pure Contact V rated tires.

  14. I got some Firestone indy 500 tires on my volvo c30. Few months later they saved my ass from rear ending someone. An suv slammed on The breaks when I was going 65 behind. Came within 1 inch of hitting the suv maybe less it was crazy close. Only $440 for a set of tires of this quality Is a steal.

  15. Hello. Does anyone knows what are the differences in handling and riding comfort between a 235/45 and 245/45 tires for 17" wheels?. Thanks

  16. Talking about the Fuzion tires being cheap really speaks to me I was in a situation where I needed to slam the breaks and the slid felt like forever. End result nobody hurt and just a hole in the bumper but 36ft would have been more then enough room to avoid that.

  17. You should drive 500 miles or so to break in a tire. Also, old (especially bald) tires tend to perform better for traction… so the old ones may have been worse at some point.

  18. If your hot rodding around alot in your car, sure spend extra money on good grip tyres. If your like me and just use your car to go from A to B, tyres become less important. Despite all the negative things Iv heard about them, I have run Goodyear Vivas on all my cars in the past and never had an issue with them for the last 10 years or so. Just put some new Viva 3s on my 2015 Civic today after the factory Hankooks were nearing their end at only 27k miles. And you got me fucked up if you think Im paying $130/tyre for what was just a basic tyre with low mileage life.

    And as stated, your test is a little flawed and bias. Which is unfortunate since your videos are usually top notch.

    I dont think my 140hp is going to be putting enough power down for tyres to have any real impact on accelerating or braking.

  19. Sigh…apples to oranges dude. The other things you're not taking into account is economics. It's a bad assumption that just because something costs more it's better. Market forces and name brand recognition play a huge role in setting the price. Case in point: South Korean made Kumho high performance summer tires. I used to buy those all the time for my BMW. They cost less than half as much as similar tires from Michelin, Goodyear or Hankooks, and though they wore out faster, I'd still get enough tread life out of them to easily justify buying them over and over, even with a 40% shorter lifespan. The trick is to find out what works for the type of driving you do and the environment they'll operate in.

  20. this video is just about breaking? I bought the cheapest tires walmart had to offer and they are pretty good. At that they are 2 different sets because i bought them at different times soo i saved alot and the tires have had no issues. I usually get falken but i ddnt want to spend that money at that time.

  21. After having Bridgestone Turanza's I can't trust anything Bridgestone. Mounted as fronts and chunked everytime I took a hard corner.

  22. This is a constant argument I have with my wife, she is a farmers daughter though. 🙂 I will never ever put cheap tyres on either of our cars, my old school 4X4 or her Impreza. She always complains I spend too much on the tyres but I will ride out the argument end the complaints from her dad. Tyres are one thing that should never ever be bought on the cheap. Here in the UK there's a big used tyre market and finally the regulators are checking out the tyres being sold, but only on a small scale. Most of the part worn tyres on the market are not roadworthy!! Tyres are bloody expensive and yet again it seems like the poor loose out as always.. 🙁

  23. Wow, that was a smooth one, “and because this is engineering explained, I’m not just gonna talk about my feeling while driving it.” Nice burn to most other YouTuber car guys

  24. There are plenty of cheap but Good tires you can buy you don't have to get ripped off. Just because it's expensive doesn't mean it's the best. Your paying for the brand name

  25. Thanks for this! I’m looking to slap new summer tires on my car soon as well. But, debating on whether to put Pirelli-P Zero, Michelin t+h, Continental-true contacts or Yokohama-Tornante’s. Lots of choices…

  26. There's definitely a line of best value, though. Getting the stickiest tires possible will cost a fortune because not only will the tires be expensive, but the tread will be gone in no time. Also, at a certain point the stickiest tires usually have a temperature range higher than normal driving so may not always grip well during normal commutes, which can actually be less safe. Another issue is that stickier tires tend to degrade from heat cycling faster than harder tires, meaning they may actually grip less than even cheap tires if they go through a few aggressive heat cycles.

    For most normal cars, around $100/tire is usually where you want to be. Any more and you're paying for features you don't need like the ability to go 150+ mph and grip that is just not necessary for street driving. As others have said, too, you can only stop as fast as the people behind you, if you stop like you dropped an anchor you'll just get rear ended by the guy on cheap tires behind you. More important than maximum grip is keeping a reasonable following distance and paying attention.

  27. Ok there comparing used tires to new tires the 5° difference will matter for one because heat creates friction so warmer temp. Will make it stop better the more rubber would matter for the wider tire in rear. There are 3 variables that are a plus in the new tire… lol

  28. i bought cheap nankangs when they were not established when they first come on the scene.. they were great.. now they are established and great.. give the cheap new guy a try… ya never know.

  29. didn't you also make a video about if expensive tires are worth it?! my milestar sport 932 tires have been doing uber in dc for 1.5 years and have 30k miles on them and are still going strong. they only cost 49.99 per tire.

  30. I once had a Porsche 944s and when it came to replace the tires I put Yokohama A008Ps on and it was a superb tire that helped me to look better than I really was as a driver. When I replaced them I stepped down a little and put Dunlop D40-M2 tires that were not bad tires but not as good as the Yokohamas for grip and handling precision. The car I now have is a new 370Z sport coupe that has Bridgestone Potenza S-007s. These are great handling tires and I plan to also replace them with the Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R tires when it's time to change.

  31. How was the inner tread wear on the rear tires with the excessive negative camber? I would recommend a little more than stock negative camber if you're going to be pushing the car hard through corners. Do the alignment with a half tank of gas and you, or somebody of a similar weight, in the driver's seat.

  32. I don't drive with all-season tires because I don't want to compromise the dry handling performance, which is over 99% of my driving. When the road is wet or the road conditions are less than good I simply slow down and drive more carefully and try to anticipate possible problems better. One time when I hydroplaned my Porsche on a highway road during a sudden and violent rainstorm in San Diego, I simply took quick and well-thought-out moves to regain control.

  33. One good thing about better-made tires, aside from the superior handling they afford, is that they can outlast cheaper tires if kept inflated properly and rotated periodically. I bought a used 944s Porsche and when it came time to reshoe it I went with a very good set of Yokohama A008P tires that were more expensive than the average tire. I then had a custom 4-wheel mild competition alignment done at a good specialty performance shop. The effect on the handling performance was significantly better than that of the tires that had been on the car. I was told that I should not expect to get more than a little more than 20,000 on those tires, so I monitored the tread wear across the tires and adjusted the inflation pressure to equalize the wear. I also rotated the tires(4-wheel rotation) every 5,000 miles. Those tires wore completely evenly across the tread until they became slicks, with over 30,000 miles. I timed the rate of treadwear so that the tires would go slick right after the end of the rainy season in San Diego and so I could drive on slicks until the next rainy season. I think I got rid of the tires at about 36,000 miles and only because my wife found out that I was driving on slicks and so she consequently went ballistic on me. When I calculate the cost per mile of having those tires it didn't really amount to much more than what I would have paid for more mundane tires. The subsequent tires I put on the car, Dunlop D 40-M2s, while not bad tires were definitely not as good in the handling department and so I regretted not getting the Yokohamas again

  34. Based on what you mentioned about corner oversteer is exactly what makes people think there's snap oversteer in the AP1s. What actually happened is that by a combination of your rears being considerably undersized, your overly hot entry and then application of brakes, the weight transferred to the front wheels which already have more grip than the rears and assuming you kept the steering angle (or worse – steered more), the front end complied whereas the rears could not. The S2000s are perfectly balanced to do this and this kind of mid corner action is what makes this car one of the best corner carving machines out there. The alignment may not have played a role depending on how fast and how sharp the corner was. I'd say this is more an issue with running 205 square and you went in a little over your head there. Glad to hear it worked out ok but you need to understand this was a user issue and not as much a mechanical issue. Ideally, you would have straightened the wheel, brake in a straight line and then tuck back in. Or better yet, not have gone in so hot. Stay safe! From one S2k owner to another, keep her alive! Braking oversteer also happens on ALL cars by the way – its a function of weight transfer. I've seen FWDs do it too.

  35. most tire shops have a buy 3 n get 4th one free for the higher end tires !
    Learn to drive and you won't need the faster stops !

  36. I just got a deal on some Firestone Firehawk GT 225/45 17 H rated a/s's. . I paid 520 Installed tirerack still wants 180 a piece shipped. I've had more grip with an ultra high performance summer tire. But these still feel really good and the best I have felt in this size over broken pavement as far as smoothness. Firestone is discontinuing these.

  37. You also should never buy a tire just because it's expensive.

    I'd rather have a $70 dollar Antares than a $300 Goodyear, any day.
    Or a Cooper….
    or a Kelly…….
    or a General……

  38. Well i buy hankook ventus s2 at 90$ each lasted 8 to 9 months i buy the cheapest one i have seen like 45$ each and 2 years and plenty of tread left 😄

  39. AAA did a CONTROLLED side by side test of cheap vs expensive tires. Expensive tires are NOT better (stopping and cornering).

  40. Jason, I do wonder, Do you think that the Extra G-force is from extra pedal pressure or from better traction from the tires. I know the little differences in Variables are not going to change the tire stopping power by 36 feet but do you think if you used a peddle pressure gauge would have changed the stopping a little bit?
    Thanks for you video's I am a automotive teacher and love how you describe how things work. Most Engineers have a hard time explaining things to people that have not experience with cars.

  41. I bought cheap d centi low pros ran over a manhole blew my sidewall went and bought another it blew when my car was put on the ground

  42. actually tires like the achilles atr sport & sport 2 are good low budget tires. and fuzions are junk anyway, the kind of tires you just keep scrolling past after all the bad reviews you read years ago.

  43. I'm all for nicer tires but I don't consider fuzions to be cheap junk, I had them on my first car an Escort ZX2 and they out-handled everything else I ever put on it trying to save money. I'd put HRIs on my new Civic Si if it was an option.

  44. I don’t know it is me seen too much tvshows but when i watch your videos i keep seen Barry Allen in the future making youtube videos without the speed powers.😂😂😂😂

  45. This review is laughable… comparing totally different tires to come to a conclusion is pretty elementary…if you want to compare an expensive tire to a cheap tire, use the same exact tire, same rating and same profile.

  46. Wider contact surface makes a big difference but you are greatly underestimating the 5 degree temperature difference more importantly what affect is the ambient temperature doing to the blacktop 5 degrees difference in the road surface is a huge difference as far as traction

  47. I had the RE71R on my s2000 and I liked them but my biggest issue with them was tread life. My rear tires only lasted 1 season, less than a year. I didn’t drive overly aggressive or drift either. Just some canyons here and there and some vtec. Now I have continental extreme contact sports on the car, we’ll see how the tread life is. Grip is great.

  48. When braking there is a weight transfer to the front. The rear will jack up a bit. This is usually accompanied by a reduction of camber as the wheel travel extends. This reduction in weight over the rear is why it breaks free. It is the wrong technique with a rear wheel drive vehicle to apply brakes in a turn. You must slow before the turn and power through it. I don't think that that extra camber will have reduced roadholding, in fact I would have assumed it improved lateral grip. As tires warm up their grip improves. The reduction in braking performance surely was a result of the discs and pads, not the tires.
    The difference between crappy tires and good ones can totally transform the behaviour of the car, from ride comfort, noise, steering, braking, roadholding wet and dry. The subjective feel can be like going from a truck to a Jaguar.

    Anyhow that is wot I think sitting in my armchair.

  49. Bought sum Walmart tires for 45 bucks each. Like 195 in total for 4 of em.. nd I've done donuts, hit sharp corners slammed da breaks a couple time.. had for about 9months, pretty good.never heard of brand either

  50. Well Triple A did a study this year and due to market standards and DOT standards the cheapest tires performed just as good in all situations except for track and race settings but then again thats a different set of testing all together but yeah your video isn’t correct, AAA covered it and the study is peer reviewed, buy whatever tire you want, most of his points are almost completely confirmation bias so….

  51. EXCELLENT DATA AND EXPLANATION. Time and Distance in an emergency can save both YOU and ANOTHER person's life by going with quality!

  52. I went cheap then paid for insurance. Ive gotten a free tire so far from what road debre has done to it so i gots my moneys worth outta it.

  53. Such a joy to watch you, and for being relevant and consistent for so long. I appreciate and thank you.

  54. sooooo … you fixed the technical issue with your car and swapped worn all season tires for new summer ones (made for track !!!) …
    and the conclusion is … !? don't buy cheep tires ? = what a "useful" test …
    if you really wanted to test cheep vs expensive – try to test (as odd is it sounds) tires on a same price !
    From a A-brand (low end) and something from a Budget brand (top of the line) for example
    now that wold be something!
    what will you get for your money ?

  55. I experienced braking oversteer once…on a snowy road. Makes for a lot of seat pucker! Acceleration oversteer does also! I really think limited slip differentials have more risk in everyday driving for RWD vehicles than the few times they may come in handy for one wheel slip situations. A manual lock up seems like it would be much better for the general public.

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