Dialogue:  How to Enjoy the Big Outside

Dialogue: How to Enjoy the Big Outside


ANNOUNCER: PRESENTATION OF DIALOGUE ON IDAHO PUBLIC TELEVISION IS MADE POSSIBLE THROUGH THE GENEROUS SUPPORT OF THE LAURA MOORE CUNNINGHAM FOUNDATION, COMMITTED TO FULFILLING THE MOORE FAMILY’S LEGACY OF BUILDING THE GREAT STATE OF IDAHO. MARCIA FRANKLIN: COMING UP…HERE IN THE WEST, WE’RE SURROUNDED BY SO MUCH NATURAL BEAUTY. BUT HOW OFTEN DO WE TAKE THE STEPS…LITERALLY…TO GET OUT AND ENJOY IT? WELL TO HELP MOTIVATE YOU, WE’VE GOT SOME HIKING AND CAMPING TIPS FROM OUTDOOR WRITER, MICHAEL LANZA. THAT’S DIALOGUE, NEXT. STAY TUNED. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] FRANKLIN: HELLO AND WELCOME TO DIALOGUE. I’M MARCIA FRANKLIN. THE WEST HAS SPECTACULAR AREAS FOR HIKING AND CAMPING. GETTING OUT IN THOSE PLACES, THOUGH, CAN SOMETIMES SEEM DAUNTING. WHAT KIND OF GEAR SHOULD ONE BUY, FOR INSTANCE, AND WHAT PREPARATION IS NEEDED TO BE SAFE IN THE BACKCOUNTRY? TODAY ON DIALOGUE I CONTINUE MY CONVERSATION WITH BOISE-BASED OUTDOOR WRITER MICHAEL LANZA, FOCUSING ON SOME HIKING AND CAMPING TIPS. LANZA, THE FORMER NORTHWEST EDITOR OF “BACKPACKER MAGAZINE,” IS THE AUTHOR OF SEVERAL HIKING GUIDEBOOKS. HE ALSO HAS A WEBSITE CALLED “THEBIGOUTSIDE.COM,” WHERE HE WRITES ABOUT HIS ADVENTURES AND SHARES ADVICE. LANZA’S ALSO AUTHORED A BOOK CALLED “BEFORE THEY’RE GONE.” IT CHRONICLED THE EXPERIENCES HE AND HIS FAMILY HAD HIKING THROUGH 11 NATIONAL PARKS THREATENED BY CLIMATE CHANGE. IN A PREVIOUS “DIALOGUE,” LANZA AND I TALKED ABOUT THOSE TRIPS, AND HE RECOMMENDED SOME BEAUTIFUL HIKES YOU CAN TAKE IN OUR REGION. YOU CAN WATCH THAT PROGRAM BY GOING TO OUR STREAMING SITE: VIDEO.IDAHOPTV.ORG. NOW IN THIS EPISODE OF DIALOGUE, WE DELVE INTO THE TYPES OF GEAR YOU’LL NEED, AS WELL AS SOME TIPS TO STAY SAFE. FRANKLIN: I THINK IT CAN BE OVERWHEMING TO PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, THEY WANT TO DO IT, THEY’VE SEEN PHOTOS OF PEOPLE BACKPACKING THROUGH BEAUTIFUL AREAS, BUT IT’S LIKE HOW DO YOU GET STARTED. CLEARLY THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS GETTING A GOOD PAIR OF BOOTS NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, FIRST. MICHAEL LANZA: YEAH. FRANKLIN: DAY HIKING, YOU KNOW, OR BACKPACKING, START WITH THAT. LANZA: THAT’S A GREAT, THAT’S A GREAT PIECE OF ADVICE BECAUSE REALLY YOU CAN HAVE, YOU KNOW, A CHEAP PACK, ALL THAT OTHER STUFF YOU’D BE A LITTLE UNCOMFORTABLE. IF YOUR HIKING SHOES OR BOOTS DON’T FIT YOU RIGHT, IT’S A TRIP ENDER. SO REALLY GET SOME, YOU KNOW DECENT SHOES. AND, AND IF YOU’RE TAKING A SHORT WALK IN THE LOCAL HILLS, WHATEVER, YOU CAN, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN PROBABLY WEAR THE SNEAKERS THAT YOU GO TO THE GYM IN OR THAT YOU, YOU KNOW, WORK, PLAY TENNIS IN OR WHATEVER, THAT’S FINE. BUT MAKE SURE THEY FIT. FRANKLIN: YEAH I MEAN I’VE, I’VE BEEN ON THE OTHER END, I’VE WITHOUT GOING INTO TOO MANY DETAILS, YOU KNOW, LIKE REALLY ROUGHED UP MY FEET BECAUSE I WAS CARRYING MORE WEIGHT THAN I ANTICIPATED I WOULD. I HAD TO CARRY A LOT OF WATER BECAUSE OF DROUGHT CONDITIONS AND THAT JUST HAMMERED MY, MY FEET BIG TIME, SO. LANZA: THAT’S A REALLY GOOD POINT. IF YOU’RE CARRYING A HEAVY, HEAVIER PACK YOU NEED FOOTWEAR THAT’S DESIGNED FOR THAT REALLY, A LITTLE MORE HEAVY DUTY, A LITTLE MORE SUPPORTIVE. FRANKLIN: WELL AND ACTUALLY AND MY FEET WERE KIND OF SLIDING BACK AND FORTH I HAD TOO MUCH ROOM, SO GET A, I ASSUME, GET SOME BOOTS AT A PLACE WHERE YOU CAN RETURN THEM IF THEY DON’T WORK OUT. LANZA: THAT HELPS A LOT YEAH. FRANKLIN: AND JUST PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE BEFORE YOU GO OUT ON A HIKE. LANZA: YEAH GO TO A PLACE WHERE THEY KNOW HOW TO FIT YOU AND THEY’RE GOING TO MEASURE YOUR FOOT SIZE ACTUALLY AND REALLY CORRECTLY FIT YOU TO BOOTS. FRANKLIN: I THINK ANOTHER THING THAT MIGHT INHIBIT FOLKS, AND AGAIN, SPEAKING FROM MY OWN STANDPOINT IT DOES ME A LITTLE BIT, IT CAN BE THE COST YOU KNOW TO, TO BUY A BACKPACK, TO BUY A SLEEPING BAG. I JUST WENT ONLINE AND, AND WAS LOOKING AT SLEEPING BAGS AND, YOU KNOW IT, IT ALL REALLY ADDS UP. LANZA: IT CAN AND AT THE SAME TIME THERE ARE SOME BRANDS, YOU KNOW, I WAS IN, JUST OUT OF COLLEGE WHEN I STARTED HIKING AND WORKING AS A REPORTER. YOU KNOW, DIDN’T HAVE A LOT OF SPARE CHANGE AND I JUST GOT WHAT I COULD, WHAT I COULD PUT TOGETHER. AND YOU KNOW HERE IN BOISE AND ELSEWHERE IN IDAHO I KNOW YOU CAN FIND GEAR CONSIGNMENT SHOPS WHERE YOU CAN PICK UP USED STUFF THAT’S ACTUALLY IN GOOD SHAPE. YOU KNOW, THERE’S A CABELA’S LOCALLY AND ELSEWHERE AND THERE’S… FRANKLIN: AND REI. LANZA: YEAH REI, THERE ARE STORES THAT’LL HAVE EITHER LESS EXPENSIVE NEW GEAR OR SOMETIMES USED GEAR THAT THEY’RE OCCASIONALLY PUTTING ON SALE. CRAIGSLIST, YOU KNOW PLACES LIKE THAT, THERE ARE PLACES WHERE YOU CAN FIND LESS EXPENSIVE GEAR. I WOULD SAY TO PEOPLE GET WHAT YOU CAN AND JUST GET OUT THERE AND DO IT AND EVENTUALLY YOU’LL ACCUMULATE, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU CAN AFFORD IT YOU’LL, YOU’LL PICK UP GEAR. FRANKLIN: AND SOMETIMES YOU CAN EVEN RENT IT. LANZA: YOU CAN RENT IT, YEAH. IF YOU’RE GOING TO BECOME A REGULAR USER, RENTING CAN BE COST PROHIBITIVE. FRANKLIN: RIGHT. LANZA: AND THAT’S WORTH BUYING. FRANKLIN: BUT IT’S A GOOD WAY TO TRY OUT THINGS. LANZA: BUT TO TRY OUT THINGS SURE. FRANKLIN: I’VE ACTUALLY FOUND THINGS I DON’T WANT RENTING, LIKE, “OH THIS BACKPACK HURTS, YOU KNOW, I’M NOT GOING TO GET THIS ONE.” LANZA: THAT’S A GOOD WAY TO TEST IT OUT, IT REALLY IS. FRANKLIN: YEAH, YEAH AND, AND THE FIT, GET SOMEBODY WHO CAN BECAUSE I KNOW WITH, WITH BACKPACKS THAT ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL. LANZA: YEAH ESPECIALLY THE BIGGER THE BACKPACK AND THE MORE WEIGHT YOU’RE PUTTING IN IT YOU REALLY WANT IT TO FIT. AND, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF COMPANIES MAKE WOMEN SPECIFIC PACKS, BECAUSE WOMEN’S TORSOS ARE DIFFERENT FROM MEN’S SO THEY’RE, THEY’RE FITTED TO BE COMFORTABLE ON WOMEN. FRANKLIN: WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS IDEA OF SLEEPING IN A HAMMOCK, NOW INSTEAD OF A SLEEPING BAG? LANZA: YOU KNOW HAMMOCKS ARE POPULAR WITH, I GUESS, A CERTAIN SEGMENT OF THE OUTDOOR CROWD. I PERSONALLY NEVER LIKED SWINGING WHEN I’M TRYING TO SLEEP. I LIKE TO KIND OF BE STATIONARY. BUT YOU KNOW SOME PEOPLE LIKE THE HAMMOCK THING AND THEY, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE SOME HAMMOCKS THAT ARE MADE WITH, WITH NETTING, BUG NETTING AND LITTLE BIT OF A RAIN FLY OVER THE TOP OF IT, TOO. I’M EITHER A TENT PERSON, OR IF I KNOW IT’S GOING TO BE DRY AND NOT BUGGY I’LL SLEEP OUTSIDE THE TENT. FRANKLIN: AND I’VE EVEN SEEN NOW SLEEPING BAGS ARE THAT JUST LIKE OUTFITS THAT YOU CAN LIE DOWN IN SO THAT BASICALLY IT’S LIKE PUTTING ON A COAT. LANZA: YEAH, I’VE TESTED OUT SOME OF THOSE AND I’M TESTING OUT ANOTHER ONE NOW, THEY’RE DESIGNED TO CONVERT INTO BASICALLY LIKE A LONG DOWN JACKET, SO YOU CAN OPEN UP THE FOOT BOX OF THE BAG AND ROLL IT UP AND CLIP IT SO IT’S BELOW YOUR WAIST LIKE A LONG JACKET AND IT’S GOT ARM PORTS THAT YOU CAN OPEN UP WITH VELCRO USUALLY OR A ZIPPER AND WEAR IT LIKE IT A JACKET WITH A HOOD, WHICH IS GREAT IF YOU’RE BACKPACKING. FRANKLIN: IS IT ENOUGH PADDING FOR YOU, TOO? LANZA: OH IT’S PLENTY OF INSULATION, IT’S VERY WARM IN CAMP ESPECIALLY IF YOU’RE CAMPING IN COLDER TEMPERATURES AND YOU DON’T HAVE TO CARRY A DOWN JACKET. FRANKLIN: THEN YOU CAN JUST GET UP AND WALK AROUND IN IT. LANZA: IT’S ACTUALLY GREAT, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU HAVE TO FIRST GET OUT OF YOUR BAG IN THE MORNING, ON A COLD MORNING THAT’S THE MOST DIFFICULT THING, RIGHT? JUST LIKE ROLL THE BOTTOM OF IT UP, PUT YOUR BOOTS ON AND STEP OUTSIDE THE TENT. FRANKLIN: ONE OTHER THING I WANT TO MENTION AND THE INTERNET HAS HELPED THIS SITUATION, IS THAT THERE ARE MANY GROUPS OUT THERE, HIKING GROUPS THAT YOU CAN JOIN. LANZA: YEAH. FRANKLIN: I KNOW THAT’S BEEN HELPFUL FOR ME, BECAUSE THEN YOU GET THE COMBINED WISDOM OF EVERYBODY IN THE GROUP. LANZA: YEAH. FRANKLIN: NOT SOMETIMES THEY’RE, THEY CAN BE A LITTLE BIT CHALLENGING BECAUSE THE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN HIKING FOR A WHILE AND YOU’RE TRYING TO KEEP UP WITH THEM, BUT, BUT THEY ARE A RESERVOIR OF INFORMATION AND, AND GEAR, TOO THAT THEY CAN LEND YOU. LANZA: YEAH, MY MOM’S AN AVID HIKER, SHE LIVES BACK EAST, BUT SHE’S NOT THE SORT OF PERSON WHOSE CONFIDENT EITHER IN HER MAP SKILLS OR FINDING THE WAY SO SHE FINDS, SHE’S FOUND A COUPLE DIFFERENT LOCAL HIKING GROUPS AND SHE’S GOTTEN TO KNOW THE PEOPLE, SHE, YOU KNOW, TALKED TO THEM BEFORE THE HIKES TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY WERE GOING TO GO AT HER PACE AND NOT LEAVE HER BEHIND AND IT’S BEEN FANTASTIC FOR HER. SO SHE GOES OUT FOR WEEKLY HIKES, SHE’S, YOU KNOW SHE’S ACTUALLY 78 YEARS OLD. FRANKLIN: GREAT. LANZA: AND BUT IT’S, IT’S GOOD FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, BECAUSE NOT ONLY WILL YOU BE ASSURED OF NOT GETTING LOST BECAUSE YOU’VE GOT A GROUP LEADER, BUT YOU CAN FIND A COMPATIBLE GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT YOU LIKE, FOLKS THAT YOU MIGHT NOT MEET OTHERWISE WHO CAN TEACH YOU A LOT OF THINGS AND GIVE YOU ADVICE ON THE PACKS THAT THEY’VE USED AND LIKED OR THE BOOTS THAT THEY’VE USED AND LIKED. FRANKLIN: YOU MENTIONED MAP READING, IS HAVING SOME KNOWLEDGE OF MAP AND COMPASS STILL ADVISABLE IF YOU’RE GOING TO BE OUT HIKING OR CAN YOU JUST DEPEND ON, YOU KNOW, A GPS IF SOMEBODY HAS IT IN THE GROUP OR YOU CAN AFFORD ONE OR DOWNLOADING MAPS TO YOUR PHONE? LANZA: YEAH, WELL NO I, I THINK YOU CERTAINLY; UNLESS YOU’VE GOT SOMEONE WITH YOU WHO HAS THOSE SKILLS, IF YOU’RE HIKING INDEPENDENTLY YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND HOW TO READ A MAP. EVEN IF YOU’RE NOT USING A COMPASS, EVEN TO THE POINT WHERE YOU GET TO A JUNCTION AND YOU CAN LOOK AT THE MAP AND LOOK AT THE SIGNS AND FIGURE OUT WHICH WAY YOU NEED TO GO. YOU STILL HAVE TO HAVE THAT BASIC SENSE OF WHAT DIRECTION YOU’RE FACING AND NEED TO GO NEXT. FRANKLIN: HOW, HOW WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THESE GPS DEVICES, THOUGH? I MEAN THEY SEEM TO HAVE REVOLUTIONIZED EVERYTHING, YOU KNOW, NOT JUST HIKING, BUT BIKING AND, PEOPLE HAVE A COMFORT LEVEL WITH THEM. LANZA: I’M, I AM, I THINK TECHNOLOGY IS GOOD. YOU KNOW THE, YOU CAN GET APPS THAT MEASURE HOW FAR YOU’RE WALKING ON YOUR PHONE, ALL KINDS OF THINGS LIKE THAT. FRANKLIN: I EVEN USED ONE IN THE SAWTOOTHS ONCE, I WAS AMAZING, I WAS AMAZED THAT I STILL GOT THE COVERAGE BACK THERE. LANZA: YEAH I, I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO GOOD TECHNOLOGY, AND IN FACT I’VE BEEN ON MORE SERIOUS TRIPS WHERE YOU’RE ON YOU KNOW WE’VE BEEN ON A GLACIER IN A WHITEOUT AND ABSOLUTELY HAD, YOU KNOW, VERY ADVANCED TYPE OF STUFF, NO IDEA WHAT DIRECTION WE’RE FACING. YOU KNOW A COUPLE OF TIMES IT WAS SUCH A SEVERE WHITEOUT THAT I GOT DISORIENTED AND WAS STANDING STILL, BUT FELL OVER BECAUSE THERE’S NO SENSE OF WHERE THE GROUND IS WHEN YOU’RE ON SNOW IN A WHITEOUT ON A GLACIER. A GPS GOT US TO WHERE WE NEEDED TO BE, SO THAT WAS KIND OF A CRITICAL PIECE OF GEAR. IT’S NOT A CRITICAL PIECE OF GEAR USUALLY WHEN YOU’RE HIKING, BECAUSE USUALLY YOU’RE IN GOOD WEATHER OR… FRANKLIN: YOU’RE ON A TRAIL WITH SIGNS OR. LANZA: YEAH, A TRAIL THAT’S WELL MARKED AND HAS SIGNS AND WHATNOT. FRANKLIN: WHAT ABOUT CARRYING YOUR PHONE, DO YOU THINK THAT THAT’S A GOOD IDEA NOW SO THAT YOU CAN DIAL 911 IF YOU NEED TO? LANZA: I, I UM IF I KNOW I’M HIKING IN A PLACE, WHERE I’LL HAVE PHONE SERVICE, WHICH IS NOT THE CASE IN MANY PARTS OF IDAHO EVEN ON ROADS, RIGHT. BUT IN THE WILDERNESS IT’S NOT USUALLY THE CASE THAT YOU’LL HAVE PHONE SERVICE. FRANKLIN: ALTHOUGH YOU CAN SOMETIMES PING, PING A 911 OUT OF THERE. LANZA: YEAH OR BE ABLE TO EVEN SEND A TEXT WITH A VERY WEAK SIGNAL. FRANKLIN: RIGHT. LANZA: YOU KNOW I MENTIONED IN TAPING THE PREVIOUS SHOW THAT I WAS IN THE TETONS JUST A WEEK AGO AND THERE ARE MANY SPOTS IN THE TETONS ACTUALLY WHERE YOU CAN PICK UP A PHONE SIGNAL AND IF YOU HAVE AN EMERGENCY YOU’LL WANT TO HAVE THAT PHONE. DON’T COUNT ON IT IF YOU’RE IN A PLACE AND KNOW WHETHER YOU’LL HAVE RECEPTION BECAUSE YOU MAY NOT. FRANKLIN: AND YOU’RE NOT, YEAH AND YOU’RE NOT, SO YOU’RE NOT A PURIST, YOU DON’T THINK PEOPLE SHOULD LEAVE ALL OF THEIR DEVICES AT HOME. LANZA: NO I’VE, YOU KNOW, I’VE BEEN DOING THIS FOR THIRTY YEARS AND I’VE ACTUALLY HAD A FEW SITUATIONS THAT WERE EMERGENCY SITUATIONS AND IF YOU HAVE THAT HAPPEN ONE TIME YOU WILL BE THANKFUL IF YOU CAN COMMUNICATE WITH THE OUTSIDE WORLD. FRANKLIN: I LIKE A COUPLE OF THE OTHER TIPS THAT YOU MENTION IN YOUR, IN YOUR GUIDEBOOKS, WHICH BY THE WAY WE’LL LINK TO YOU ON, ON OUR WEBSITE. AND THAT IS, PREP YOUR CAR; MAKE SURE THAT YOUR CAR IS IN WORKING ORDER. SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, AND YOU READ THESE ARTICLES ABOUT PEOPLE THAT, THAT GO OUT TO HAVE A FAMILY TIME IN THE BACKCOUNTRY, THEIR CAR GETS STUCK OR THEY COME BACK TO THEIR CAR AND THE CAR ISN’T WORKING. LANZA: RIGHT. FRANKLIN: SO IT’S CRITICAL, ESPECIALLY IN THIS REGION WITH THE CHANGEABLE WEATHER AND THE ROADS THE WAY THAT THEY ARE TO TAKE A GOOD CAR AND TO MAKE SURE YOU’VE HAD IT LOOKED OVER, THE TIRES, THE, EVERYTHING BEFORE YOU GO SOMEPLACE. LANZA: YEAH HAVE A REAL SPARE IN THE CAR; YOU MIGHT NEED A SHOVEL TO SHOVEL SNOW OR SAND. FRANKLIN: YEAH I’VE HAD THAT HAPPEN BEFORE. LANZA: YEAH ABSOLUTELY, GOOD TIRES. I, YOU KNOW, BEFORE I TAKE A LONG TRIP I ACTUALLY TAKE MY CAR INTO THE GARAGE AND MAKE SURE I’VE GOT AN OIL CHANGE, THEY’RE GOING TO CHECK ALL THE FLUIDS, ETC. WE HAVE REAL WILDERNESS IN IDAHO AND MANY OF THE ROADS TO ACCESS THOSE WILDERNESS TRAILHEADS MAY BE TWENTY, FIFTY, FORTY MILES LONG VERY REMOTE, RUGGED GRAVEL ROADS. MANY OF ‘EM ARE PASSABLE TO CARS, BUT FIND OUT BEFOREHAND, BECAUSE SOME OF THEM ARE STRICTLY HIGH-CLEARANCE, FOUR-WHEEL DRIVE VEHICLE ROADS. FRANKLIN: AND ANOTHER, JUST SEEMS LIKE A BASIC TIP, BUT SO IMPORTANT, TELL SOMEBODY WHERE YOU’RE GOING. LANZA: YEAH. FRANKLIN: AND WHEN YOU EXPECT TO BE OUT. I KNOW I INTERVIEWED, AT THIS OUTDOOR SHOW, AARON, I’M TRYING TO THINK OF HIS LAST NAME, UNFORTUNATELY HE HAD TO USE A KNIFE TO FREE HIMSELF WHEN HE FELL. LANZA: OH YEAH SAME STORY, RIGHT. FRANKLIN: YEAH AND HE SAID, “YOU KNOW I JUST SHOULD HAVE TOLD SOMEBODY WHERE I WAS GOING.” LANZA: YEAH, YEAH. FRANKLIN: SO, BUT HE CARRIES A BEACON NOW BECAUSE OR IS THAT WHAT IT’S CALLED EMERGENCY BEACON? LANZA: YEAH, A PERSONAL LOCATOR BEACON, SO YOU CAN SEND A SIGNAL. FRANKLIN: YEAH WHICH IS BECAUSE HE GOES TO SUCH DANGEROUS PLACES. LANZA: RIGHT. FRANKLIN: BUT HE DIDN’T TELL ANYBODY WHERE HE WAS GOING. LANZA: YEAH LET PEOPLE KNOW BECAUSE THE RESPONSE TIME, I THINK HE SPENT TWO OR THREE DAYS IN THE CANYON TRAPPED. FRANKLIN: RALSTON, I THINK WAS HIS LAST NAME, YEAH. LANZA: TWO OR THREE DAYS TRAPPED IN A CANYON. FRANKLIN: YES HE DID. LANZA: AND NEARLY DIED. BUT EVEN ON, YOU KNOW, EVEN SOMETHING AS, I ONCE BROKE A BONE IN A FOOT COMING DOWN OFF A MOUNTAIN CLIMB IN THE TETONS AND HAD I, YOU KNOW, I HAD A FRIEND WITH ME AND WE WERE ABLE TO GET OUT ON OUR OWN. BUT, YOU KNOW, EVEN IN A SITUATION LIKE THAT WHERE YOU COULD PROBABLY CALL SOMEONE, EVEN WHEN YOU CAN MAKE IMMEDIATE CONTACT THE RESPONSE TIME IS PROBABLY HOURS. FRANKLIN: THAT’S RIGHT. LANZA: IF YOU’RE A DAY’S WALK FROM YOUR CAR OR MORE THAN THAT, IT’S MULTIPLE DAYS RESPONSE TIME. THAT REALLY CAN BE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SURVIVAL AND NOT SURVIVING. I MEAN LETTING PEOPLE KNOW WHERE YOU’RE GOING, YOUR EXACT ROUTE AND WHEN YOU EXPECT TO BE OUT IS, YOU KNOW, IS JUST A SMART PRECAUTION. FRANKLIN: CRITICAL, COULD BE A LIFESAVER. LANZA: YEAH. FRANKLIN: AND ALSO THINK AHEAD OF TIME, REALLY BE REALISTIC ABOUT HOW LONG IT’S GOING TO TAKE YOU TO DO SOMETHING. YOU HAVE PEOPLE, AND I DO THIS TOO, ESTIMATE ABOUT TWO MILES PER HOUR. LANZA: UH HUH. FRANKLIN: OVER, OVER THE COURSE OF A HIKE AND THEN ADDING IN ANOTHER WHAT, HOUR FOR PER THOUSAND FOOT. LANZA: AND HOUR PER THOUSAND FEET OF ELEVATION GAIN OR LOSS IS STANDARD PRACTICE. FRANKLIN: BECAUSE YOU CAN THINK, “OH YOU KNOW EIGHT MILES NO PROBLEM, OR FIVE MILES NO PROBLEM,” WELL IT DEPENDS ON THE FIVE MILES, IT COULD BE FIVE MILES STRAIGHT UP. LANZA: YEAH AND THAT, AND THAT TWO MILE AN HOUR PACE IS ASSUMING A GOOD TRAIL RIGHT? IF IT’S A VERY RUGGED TRAIL OR NOT A TRAIL, IF YOU’RE HUNTING YOU KNOW AND YOU’RE WALKING JUST CROSS COUNTRY OFF TRAIL YOUR PACE MIGHT BE A MILE AN HOUR OR SLOWER. SO YEAH IT’S, IT, IT’S NOT NECESSARILY GOING TO BE THE SAME WHEN YOU GO INTO A PLACE LIKE THE SAWTOOTHS AS HIKING TRAILS IN THE BOISE FOOTHILLS OR TRAILS NEAR YOUR HOME. FRANKLIN: RIGHT, NO ABSOLUTELY I WENT TO SAWTOOTH LAKE LAST YEAR AND I THOUGHT, “OH JUST FIVE MILES UP, FIVE MILES BACK,” AND THEN I DECIDED TO GO TO THE END OF THE LAKE, WHICH IS ADDS ANOTHER TWO MILES TOTAL AND BY THE TIME I WAS DONE IT WAS THIRTEEN MILES AND I WAS LIMPING OUT, I MEAN. LANZA: YEAH A FEW THOUSAND FEET, THAT’S A RUGGED HIKE. FRANKLIN: YEAH IT WAS A LITTLE IT WAS A LITTLE TOO MUCH. GOOD LESSON LEARNED I WASN’T THAT FAR AWAY. ALSO TO REALLY THINK ABOUT YOUR WATER NEEDS. THIS IS INTERESTING TO ME, YOU REALLY NEED, YOU KNOW, JUST NOT DOING MUCH OF ANYTHING AT ALL YOU SHOULD BE DRINKING TWO LITERS OF WATER A DAY WHICH IS 64 OUNCES. LANZA: RIGHT YEAH. FRANKLIN: AND, AND YOU PUT YOURSELF IN HIGHER ELEVATION… LANZA: THE SUNS MUCH HOTTER IN HIGH ELEVATION. FRANKLIN: YOU NEED TO PLAN TO DRINK. LANZA: AND YOU’RE EXERTING AND YOU’RE WALKING UP HILLS AND YOU’RE, YOUR BODIES BURNING A LOT OF ENERGY AND IT’S GOING THROUGH FLUIDS VERY QUICKLY. SO I, LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE I’LL HAVE A BLADDER AND A HOSE. FRANKLIN: SO YOU LIKE HAVING THAT HYDRATION PACK BETTER THAN A, A BOTTLE? LANZA: USUALLY, USUALLY YEAH BECAUSE I’LL DRINK FROM IT EVERY FIFTEEN OR TWENTY MINUTES OUT OF HABIT. BECAUSE REALLY, YOU GO AN HOUR WITHOUT DRINKING AND YOU’RE GETTING THIRSTY ALREADY AND BY THE TIME YOUR BODY SENDS THAT THIRST MESSAGE YOU’RE ALREADY DOWN ON WATER. THAT’S ANOTHER TIP IF YOU’RE HIKING EITHER WITH KIDS OR BEGINNER HIKER WHO’S AN ADULT IS REMIND THEM ALL THE TIME… “DRINK SOME WATER, DRINK SOME WATER.” FRANKLIN: SO YOU SHOULD BE GOING TO THE BATHROOM WHAT, EVERY TWENTY MINUTES ONCE YOU’RE FULLY HYDRATED? LANZA: WELL IT, IT MIGHT BE MORE IF YOU’RE OLDER SURE, BUT NO IT MIGHT, YOU KNOW IT MIGHT BE A COUPLE OF HOURS. FRANKLIN: OKAY. LANZA: BUT IF YOU GO SOME HOURS AND YOU’RE NOT GOING TO THE BATHROOM, THAT’S NOT A GOOD SIGN. FRANKLIN: DEHYDRATED YOU CAN GET A HEADACHE VERY EASILY AT THOSE ELEVATIONS. I KNOW I DO. AND THEN RIVER CROSSINGS, PEOPLE MAY NOT THINK ABOUT THAT BEFORE THEY LEAVE, BUT YOU CAN, YOU CAN GET TO, WELL YOU KNOW THAT, THAT YOUNG MAN THAT WAS IN JOHN KRAKAUER’S BOOK WHO WENT INTO ALASKA I MEAN ULTIMATELY HE ATE SOMETHING THAT MADE HIM REALLY SICK, IT LOOKS LIKE BUT HE WAS ALSO STYMIED BY THIS HUGE RIVER HE COULDN’T CROSS TO GET TO ANY KIND OF HELP. LANZA: RIGHT, RIGHT YEAH A VERY FAST MOVING RIVER THAT WAS PROBABLY GLACIATED AND SO IT’S FULL OF SILT YOU CAN’T SEE THE BOTTOM. BUT, AN EVEN MUCH MORE COMMON SCENARIO IS YOU GO TO A PLACE LIKE THE WHITE CLOUDS OR THE SAWTOOTHS AND SOME CREEK THAT YOU COULD STEP ACROSS IN LATE SUMMER, IN THE EARLY SUMMER IT’S FULL OF SNOWMELT AND IT’S A LOT HIGHER AND FASTER. IN FACT, JUST A YEAR AGO ABOUT THIS TIME IT WAS THE END OF JUNE, MY SON AND I BACKPACKED TO ALICE LAKE IN THE SAWTOOTHS AND THERE’S A CREEK CROSSING IN THERE AND IT WAS FRIGIDLY COLD. HE STEPPED IN AND STEPPED BACK OUT AND SAID, “OH MY GOSH DAD THAT’S REALLY COLD.” BUT, YOU KNOW, THEN WE, WE DID IT TOGETHER AND MADE IT ACROSS, BUT IT WAS MOVING FAST AND, AND IT WAS PUSHY AND IF YOU, IF THAT WATER’S ABOVE YOUR KNEES IT, IT KIND OF CHANGES THE DYNAMIC, IT BECOMES MUCH MORE CHALLENGING AND YOU CAN FEEL IT. ONE TIP FOR PEOPLE IS HAVE SOME CHANGE OF FOOTWEAR THAT YOU CAN PUT ON BECAUSE YOU’RE PROBABLY GOING TO HAVE A ROCKY CREEK BOTTOM, YOU DON’T, YOU DON’T REALLY WANT TO GET YOUR HIKING BOOTS WET BECAUSE THEN YOU CAN GET BLISTERS, BE UNCOMFORTABLE HIKING ALL DAY IN WET BOOTS. CHANGE INTO SOME SANDALS OR SOMETHING TO PROTECT YOUR FEET A BIT. FRANKLIN: AND FOR ME I KNOW HAVING GONE THROUGH THIS EXPERIENCE, I, IT’S ALWAYS CLOSED TOE SANDALS FOR ME BECAUSE I LOST A TOENAIL IN A RIVERBED. LANZA: PROTECT YOUR TOES, YEAH. LANZA: AND THE YEAH AND THAT’S SEALED SO THAT THE WATER WON’T PULL THAT SANDAL OFF. I MEAN FLIP FLOPS AREN’T, YOU KNOW, REALLY. FRANKLIN: YEAH, THAT’S WHY I MENTION IT BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE MAY… LANZA: CITY SANDALS AREN’T, AREN’T WHAT YOU WANT. FRANKLIN: EXACTLY. LANZA: AND OTHER TIP IS THAT WHEN YOU, WHEN YOU HAVE TO CROSS A CREEK AND, AND YOU DECIDE THAT IT’S SAFE TO CROSS, MAKE SURE IT IS, DON’T BE WEDDED TO YOUR ITINERARY SUCH THAT YOU CAN’T DECIDE TO TURN AROUND BECAUSE YOU MIGHT HAVE TO AND I’VE HAD TO TURN AROUND WHEN A CREEK CROSSING WAS JUST DEEMED UNSAFE. FRANKLIN: RIGHT. LANZA: BUT IF YOU MAKE THE CROSSING, USE SOME STICKS OR POLES TO HELP YOU BALANCE AND MOVE AT A SLIGHT UPSTREAM ANGLE BECAUSE YOU’LL FIND THAT BY STEPPING INTO THE FORCE OF THE CURRENT IT’S EASIER TO BALANCE THAN IF YOU’RE WALKING EITHER ACROSS IT OR SLIGHTLY DOWNSTREAM. SLIGHTLY DOWNSTREAM THAT DOWNSTREAM CURRENT IS PUSHING YOUR LEGS OUT FORWARD FROM UNDER YOU. FRANKLIN: DO YOU ALWAYS CARRY POLES? I NOTICE IN THE PICTURES, SOME OF THE PICTURES OF YOUR CHILDREN THEY, THEY EACH HAVE A POLE. LANZA: THEY DO YEAH. FRANKLIN: I LIKE TO HAVE A POLE WITH ME, AT LEAST ONE. LANZA: I, I ALWAYS CARRY TWO POLES IT REALLY GREATLY RELIEVES THE PRESSURE ON YOUR LOWER BACK AND ALSO ON YOUR, YOUR JOINTS OF YOUR LEGS AND YOUR LEG MUSCLES. FRANKLIN: DO YOU CARRY ALTIMETER SO YOU CAN TELL IF THE PRESSURES DROPPING AND A STORM IS COMING IN OR? LANZA: NOT USUALLY. WHEN I’M CLIMBING MOUNTAINS OR MORE TECHNICAL STUFF WHERE YOU NEED AN ALTIMETER I DO. FRANKLIN: IT’S THE WEATHER IT’S SO CHANGEABLE. LANZA: YEAH I’VE, I’VE LEARNED TO LOOK FOR CLUES IN THE SKY. FRANKLIN: CIRRUS CLOUDS. LANZA: LIKE CIRRUS CLOUDS INDICATING TWELVE TO TWENTY-FOUR HOURS OF WEATHER CHANGE. WHEN WINDS PICK UP VERY ABRUPTLY, CAN INDICATE THAT THERE IS A NEW WEATHER SYSTEM MOVING IN OR LEAVING. FRANKLIN: WHAT’S THE BEST THING TO DO IN LIGHTENING? I KNOW I INTERVIEWED GRETEL EHRLICH RECENTLY AND SHE’S BEEN STRUCK BY LIGHTNING TWICE, UNBELIEVABLE, BUT. LANZA: THAT’S, YEAH THAT’S BAD LUCK. GET TO LOWER, GET TO LOWER GROUND; GET AWAY FROM TALL TREES THAT’LL BE LIGHTENING RODS. SPREAD OUT, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, HOPEFULLY NOBODY GETS HIT, BUT IF YOU’RE CLOSE TOGETHER YOU CAN HAVE MULTIPLE PEOPLE HIT BY A BOLT OF LIGHTNING. CERTAINLY YOU WOULDN’T WANT MULTIPLE PEOPLE HIT, SPREAD OUT. FRANKLIN: DOES, DOES YOUR POLE HELP YOU AT ALL IF IT HAS A RUBBER TIP ON IT OR IS THAT NEGLIGIBLE…NEGLIGIBLE, DOESN’T REALLY GROUND YOU? LANZA: YEAH I DON’T, I DON’T THINK IT REALLY, I DON’T THINK IT’LL GROUND YOU, I DON’T THINK IT’S GOING TO ATTRACT LIGHTENING BECAUSE IT’S LOWER THAN YOU ARE. FRANKLIN: BUT IF YOU’RE, IF YOU’RE WAY UP ON TOP OF A, YOU KNOW, MOUNTAIN AND YOU CAN’T GET TO LOWER GROUND? LANZA: WELL YOU, YOU’VE GOT TO TRY TO. FRANKLIN: STAY AWAY FROM TREES. LANZA: YEAH IF YOU SEE WEATHER COMING IN BE AWARE OF IT. DON’T BE HEADING FOR THE SUMMIT IF YOU SEE THOSE BLACK, YOU KNOW, STORM CLOUDS OR IF YOU HEAR THUNDER, THAT’S A BAD SIGN. BUT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU’RE THAT HIGH UP YOU CAN PROBABLY SEE THAT WEATHER APPROACHING. FRANKLIN: YEAH, YEAH. LANZA: TURN AROUND AND HEAD DOWN. FRANKLIN: AND I NEGLECTED WHEN WE WERE TALKING ABOUT BOOTS TO MENTION REALLY IMPORTANT INFORMATION, YOU SAY, “DON’T SKIMP ON SOCKS.” LANZA: YEAH. FRANKLIN: SOCKS ARE IMPORTANT. LANZA: YEAH, YEAH COTTON SOCKS. FRANKLIN: HAVING SOME LINERS AND HAVING, YOU EVEN CARRY A CHANGE FOR EACH DAY WHICH WAS INTERESTING. LANZA: YEAH A CHANGE OF SOCKS, I LIKE TO HAVE DRY SOCKS TO PUT ON. THERE’S THREE THINGS THAT GIVE YOU BLISTERS, THAT’S FRICTION, HEAT AND MOISTURE. YOU HAVE TO HAVE ALL THREE OF THOSE THINGS. SO YOU CAN ELIMINATE AT LEAST ONE OF THEM BY HAVING DRY SOCKS, BY ELIMINATING THE MOISTURE, JUST CHANGE SOCKS IF YOUR SOCKS GET WET DURING THE DAY AND DRY OUT THE OTHER ONES. GOOD SOCKS, GOOD WOOL OR WOOL BLEND SOCKS WILL DRY OUT AND YOU CAN WEAR THEM AGAIN ANOTHER DAY. FRANKLIN: AND KEEP A CHANGE OF DRY CLOTHING TO CHANGE INTO AT YOUR CAMPSITE SO YOU DON’T GET CHILLED FROM HAVING… LANZA: RIGHT, RIGHT. FRANKLIN: AND THEN TAKE THAT OFF AND PUT IT AWAY AND USE IT THE NEXT DAY. LANZA: DAMP, DAMP CLOTHES CONDUCT HEAT AWAY FROM YOUR BODY. FRANKLIN: WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT WOMEN HIKING ALONE? LANZA: YEAH IT’S UNFORTUNATELY NOT THE SAME FOR WOMEN AS IT IS FOR MEN AND I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND THAT NATURAL FEAR. I DO BELIEVE THAT, THAT 99.9% OF THE PEOPLE YOU MEET IN THE COUNTRY ARE GOOD, THE BACKCOUNTRY, ARE GOOD PEOPLE WHO DO NOT MEAN YOU HARM. AT THE SAME TIME, YOU KNOW, I’VE KNOWN PLENTY OF WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN APPREHENSIVE ABOUT DOING, IF IT MAKES YOU APPREHENSIVE, FIND A PARTNER. I’VE KNOWN WOMEN WHO’VE BACKPACKED LONG DISTANCES BY THEMSELVES AND ARE COMFORTABLE WITH IT AND ARE SKILLED AND KNOW HOW TO TAKE CARE OF THEMSELVES AND I REALLY DO BELIEVE THAT YOU USUALLY, YOU ARE USUALLY SAFE, BUT FIND A PARTNER. THERE ARE WOMEN’S HIKING GROUPS. THERE ARE HIKING CLUBS THAT ARE MEN AND WOMEN AND YOU CAN FIND GOOD HIKING PARTNERS, IF THAT MAKES YOU MORE COMFORTABLE. FRANKLIN: LET’S MAYBE SHARE WITH THE VIEWERS A COUPLE OTHER ESSENTIAL THINGS TO CARRY. I ASSUME A WATER FILTER IS ONE; I KNOW THAT YOU DON’T WANT TO BE STUCK BACK THERE WITH A PROBLEM… LANZA: YEAH IF YOU’RE OUT FOR MORE THAN A DAY YOU PROBABLY WILL HAVE TO TREAT SOME WATER, YOU CAN’T CARRY ENOUGH WATER FOR DAYS BECAUSE IT’S A LITTLE OVER TWO POUNDS PER LITER. SO THERE ARE NUMEROUS TYPES OF WATER FILTERS OUT THERE, FROM TRADITIONAL PUMP FILTERS TO GRAVITY FILTERS, WHERE YOU JUST FILL A BAG, HANG IT FROM A BRANCH AND IT DRAINS THROUGH THE FILTER INTO A CLEAN BAG, WHICH IS GREAT AND IT’S REALLY CONVENIENT. YOU CAN, YOU KNOW, USE DIFFERENT TYPES OF DROPS THAT ARE CHLORINE BASED. FRANKLIN: YEAH I USUALLY TAKE A WATER FILTER AND THEN IF THAT’S GOING TO SILT UP I TAKE IODINE WITH ME FOR BACKUP. LANZA: RIGHT IODINE OR CHLORINE BASED, RIGHT. FRANKLIN: YEAH, A KNIFE OBVIOUSLY IS IMPORTANT, A HEADLAMP. YOU KNOW I THINK SOME PEOPLE, INCLUDING ME, CAN GET SO FIXATED ON OUR CLOTHING AND MAKING SURE WE HAVE ENOUGH LAYERS THAT WE FORGET SOME OF THESE KIND OF LITTLE SMALL BUT ESSENTIAL ITEMS. A FIRST AID KIT, YOU KNOW EXTRA BATTERIES OR WHATEVER FOR YOUR HEADLAMP, TOILET PAPER. LANZA: WHICH IS HANDY. YEAH, A HEADLAMP IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT ALWAYS GO IN MY PACK EVEN WHEN I’M ON A DAY HIKE, BECAUSE IT WEIGHS FOUR OUNCES, MANY OF THEM ARE RECHARGEABLE NOW SO YOU DON’T NEED TO CARRY BATTERIES, YOU CHARGE IT UP BEFORE YOU LEAVE HOME, BUT YOU JUST NEVER KNOW. YOU KNOW I’VE BEEN DELAYED A LOT LATER THAN I EXPECTED TO BE AT TIMES AND IT’S HARD TO WALK IN THE DARK. FRANKLIN: WITH A GROUP, I KNOW I ALWAYS BRING EARPLUGS. LANZA: IF I’M CAMPING WITH A GROUP I DO CARRY EARPLUGS, I LIKE SLEEPING. FRANKLIN: MAYBE SOMETHING TO HELP YOU SLEEP. HOW OFTEN SHOULD YOU, SHOULD YOU CARRY BEAR SPRAY? LANZA: IT DEPENDS WHERE YOU’RE GOING. FRANKLIN: OR JUST MOSTLY IN GLACIER AND? LANZA: YEAH WHENEVER I’M HIKING IN GRIZZLY COUNTRY I CARRY BEAR SPRAY AND OTHERS IN MY PARTY, ADULTS, CARRY BEAR SPRAY, TOO. FRANKLIN: AND I THINK ANOTHER TIP THAT YOU HAVE IN YOUR BOOK WHICH I LIKED IS, IS, YOU KNOW, IF YOU’RE GOING WITH A GROUP TALK ABOUT WHAT EACH PERSON IS CARRYING SO THAT YOU DON’T HAVE, END UP WITH EIGHT WATER FILTERS. LANZA: RIGHT, IT’S A VERY GOOD POINT BECAUSE THIS STUFF’S HEAVY AND YOU WANT YOUR BACKPACK TO BE AS LIGHT AS POSSIBLE. IT REALLY MAKES A DIFFERENCE IN YOUR ENJOYMENT OF HIKING WHEN YOU’RE BACKPACKING. SO YOU DON’T, YOU DON’T NEED TO HAVE SEVERAL WATER FILTERS, YOU DON’T, YOU KNOW, YOU DON’T NEED TO HAVE MULTIPLE COOK KITS AND STOVES, THERE’S A LOT OF STUFF THAT YOU CAN SHARE, BUT THE OTHER THING TO COMMUNICATE ABOUT IS TO MAKE SURE YOU DO HAVE THE ESSENTIAL STUFF, SOMEBODY’S GOT A FIRST AID KIT, YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY’S GOT LIGHTERS OR MATCHES OR YOU KNOW, THE WATER FILTER. YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE YOU DO HAVE THAT STUFF AS A GROUP. FRANKLIN: YOU ALSO WANT TO MAKE SURE THE OPPOSITE DOESN’T HAPPEN WHERE EVERYBODY THINKS JOE HAS IT. LANZA: SOMEBODY ELSE BROUGHT IT, RIGHT. FRANKLIN: AND THERE’S NO LIGHTER IN THE END. LANZA: YEAH. FRANKLIN: AND, AND BE FAMILIAR WITH LEAVE NO TRACE PRINCIPLES BEFORE YOU LEAVE. LANZA: YEAH VERY IMPORTANT. AND READILY AVAILABLE INFORMATION ONLINE AND AT THE PARKS THAT YOU’RE VISITING USUALLY. IN FACT, YOU KNOW, IN ANY NATIONAL PARK AND MANY OTHER STATE PARKS SOMETIMES WHERE THEY HAVE PEOPLE ON DUTY THEY WILL GO OVER WITH YOU THE RULES OF CAMPING IN THE BACKCOUNTRY SO THAT YOU’RE, YOU KNOW, NOT LEAVING AN IMPRINT. FRANKLIN: I ASSUME ONE OF THE BEST THINGS YOU CAN TAKE WITH YOU IS A POSITIVE ATTITUDE, BECAUSE YOU ARE GOING TO ENCOUNTER THINGS THAT ARE DIFFICULT AT TIMES. LANZA: YEAH. YOU KNOW IT MAKES ME THINK OF A STORY THAT I LOVE TO SHARE, WHEN WE BACKPACKED WITH OUR KIDS IN GLACIER NATIONAL PARK, THEY WERE NINE AND SEVEN, AND ON OUR LAST DAY IT RAINED, RAINED ALL DAY, WE HIKED FOR HOURS IN A COLD, KIND OF MISERABLE RAIN, YOU KNOW. WE’RE IN RAIN JACKETS, WE WERE WELL-DRESSED, WE STAYED WARM, WE DRANK AND STOPPED TO SNACK AND WHATNOT, BUT AT ONE POINT MY NINE YEAR OLD SON, YOU KNOW HE’S A KID, TALK ABOUT LESSONS THAT KIDS BRING FROM THE BACKCOUNTRY AND ADULTS TOO. I ASKED HIM HOW HE WAS DOING, HE SAID, “YOU KNOW, ON A DAY LIKE THIS I THINK ABOUT SOME OF THE WORST EXPERIENCES THAT I’VE HAD AND I THINK OKAY THIS RAIN ISN’T THAT BAD AFTER ALL.” AND WHAT A GREAT LESSON TO DRAW FROM IT. I THINK IT, I THINK THOUGH, WHETHER YOU’RE A KID OR AN ADULT, THESE EXPERIENCES REALLY TRANSLATE TO LIFE. YOU KNOW I’VE HAD TIMES AND YOU KNOW IN MY WORK LIFE WHERE YOU KNOW YOU JUST HAVE A BAD DAY AND YOU CAN THINK, “WELL, IT’S NOT AS BAD AS THAT TIME LIGHTENING WAS FLASHING ALL AROUND ME ON THAT MOUNTAIN,” REALLY, YOU KNOW. FRANKLIN: AND IT DOESN’T COST ANYTHING TO PACK. LANZA: NO, IT DOESN’T COST ANYTHING. FRANKLIN: OR THERE’S NO WEIGHT TO IT. WELL GREAT, WELL THANKS FOR, FOR STAYING AND SHARING SOME EXTRA TIPS FOR HIKING AND SOME GEAR TIPS WITH US, I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT. YOU’VE BEEN LISTENING TO MICHAEL LANZA, HE’S A BOISE-BASED OUTDOOR WRITER, HE’S GOT MANY, MANY ARTICLES TO HIS NAME AND IN MAGAZINES LIKE ‘BACKPACKER MAGAZINE’ AND ‘OUTSIDE.’ HAS ALSO WRITTEN SEVERAL GUIDEBOOKS AND A BOOK CALLED, ‘BEFORE THEY’RE GONE.’ HE HAS A WEBSITE CALLED THEBIGOUTSIDE.COM, WHICH WE’LL LINK TO ON OUR WEBSITE, THE DIALOGUE WEBSITE. TO CHECK THAT OUT, JUST GO TO IDAHOPTV.ORG AND CLICK ON DIALOGUE. FOR DIALOGUE I’M MARCIA FRANKLIN. THANKS FOR TUNING IN. 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